173: Some Ghosts are Deal Breakers

Stacy Grinsfelder (00:00)
In today's episode, we're shaking off the proverbial cobwebs to kick off a brand new season.

Daniel Kanter (00:05)
And later, we're embracing spooky season in February, because why not?

Stacy Grinsfelder (00:10)
I'm Stacy Grinsfelder.

Daniel Kanter (00:12)
I'm Daniel Kanter, and you're listening to True Tales From Old Houses.

Stacy Grinsfelder (00:16)
Welcome to season 13. Hi, Daniel.

Daniel Kanter (00:18)
Season

13, Hi Stacy, long time no see kind of. How's it been?

Stacy Grinsfelder (00:23)
Kind of, I

know. Good, we just had a little earthquake.

Daniel Kanter (00:27)
Right? Like, when?

Stacy Grinsfelder (00:30)
just a few minutes ago I'm sitting in my little satellite office in Salt Lake City. I'm in Salt Lake City for the winter and yeah there was a little earthquake. Isn't that weird? I know, didn't have any idea that I would have that to talk to you about today and before we get into it I do want to thank our Season 13 sponsors, very exciting, our friends Sutherland Welles, Heritage Supply Co. who you previously knew as The Craftsman Store.

Daniel Kanter (00:39)
My goodness.

Stacy Grinsfelder (00:58)
Repaint Studios and Brouns and Co. Linseed Oil Paint.

Daniel Kanter (01:02)
Thank you to all of the sponsors.

Stacy Grinsfelder (01:05)
so our season 13 sponsors, in case you have forgotten, because this hiatus went on forever, which of course we're going to talk about as well, those sponsors are on the True Tales from Old House's website. So if you ever forget their URLs, their coupon codes, anything like that, there's a sponsor tab right at the top of each page. And you can just click there to find out more information.

Daniel Kanter (01:27)
Yes, and please do use those coupon codes. It's how they know that their ad dollars are well spent.

Stacy Grinsfelder (01:33)
Exactly, exactly. So yeah, earthquake. That was super weird.

Daniel Kanter (01:37)
okay. Did anything fall? Was it dramatic? Did you hide under the bed? I don't, I'm, I live in New York. I don't, what happened? How it felt. Okay.

Stacy Grinsfelder (01:43)
No.

Yeah, none of those things. None of those things. fact,

but I was sitting here and then all of sudden I felt it and I thought, hey, that was an earthquake. So I just went into the other room, Andy was home and I said, was that an earthquake? And he said, yeah. I haven't been in an earthquake. I guess we had a little one when I was in Blake Hill House in New York and that was strange. That was a little more dramatic because even though it was a smaller earthquake, you know, it was an old house. So we heard.

glass rattling and a lot more movement and all that stuff because you know it's an old house 1885. Here I'm in an apartment building so it was more like a little bit of movement a little bit of shaking and it was a it was a larger earthquake but not as dramatic. Yeah.

Daniel Kanter (02:21)
Yeah.

I mean, I know

earthquakes can cause devastation and I'm not.

trying to promote that, but I am.

Stacy Grinsfelder (02:41)
I

Daniel Kanter (02:42)
Like

I just wanna know, I just wanna know what it's like.

Stacy Grinsfelder (02:46)
Yeah, I've been through a few. was in another one in southern Utah when I was a teenager. I guess this isn't the earthquake show. This is a weird way to kick off season 13. We're getting there. We're getting there, everyone. And it was actually a very serious earthquake. And there was devastation. Houses were lost. There was a landslide. It was a very serious one. And then I was in a couple in California, which felt dramatic, but not a lot happened. So yeah.

It's an interesting phenomenon. It's more noise, I have found. It feels like it's loud, kind of sounds like a train or something, depending on the severity. Yeah, interesting. All right, well, let's get back on topic, which is, I just want to say, I'm really happy to be back. The hiatus felt so long, and I missed everyone. And I just want to say, I'm so appreciative of the emails.

Daniel Kanter (03:25)
Ooh, spooky.

It's so nice.

Stacy Grinsfelder (03:43)
and social media messages while we were away and I'm really looking forward to more conversations and connection during our what I'm calling lucky season 13.

Daniel Kanter (03:53)
we really missed doing this show and ⁓ it's great to be back.

Stacy Grinsfelder (03:58)
Yeah, it is. We're actually doing something a little different because we missed Spooky Season in October, so we're devoting the first two episodes to ghost stories because they're always listener favorites and I think they're also Daniel favorites as well.

Daniel Kanter (04:12)
They're

my favorites. I love the ghost stories. So I'm thrilled that Stacy decided, you know, we can't have a year go by without ghost stories. It's just gonna happen a little later.

Stacy Grinsfelder (04:21)
yeah

we can't but we are also doing Daniel favorites at the very beginning of the season because you have a little something to tell us don't you?

Daniel Kanter (04:33)
Yeah, so, Stacy, I don't know if you realize this, I looked, it's been three years since our very first recording in your house, which was not three years. and a lot has really changed in my life over the course of those three years. some of it personal, some of it just sort of situational. A lot of chapters have sort of ended.

Stacy Grinsfelder (04:42)
three years.

Daniel Kanter (04:55)
And this to say, this is another one for me. So I have really loved doing this show. I want to be very clear. There's like no drama here. Stacy and I love each other, I think, I hope, and have really enjoyed doing this project together for as long as we have. But yeah, my life ⁓ is a little bit different now. And I'm kind of trying to...

Stacy Grinsfelder (05:08)
We do.

Daniel Kanter (05:19)
move into the next phase, make space for other things that I wanna do. And so unfortunately, I kind of had to make the difficult decision to step away from this thing that I love that I don't normally kind of walk away from stuff that I enjoy as much as this. So I will really miss it. I love working with Stacy. I've loved all of our interviews. I desperately want to thank.

all of our interviewees and sponsors and listeners and of course Stacy, like I don't know how much you guys realize how much Stacy is doing behind the scenes that I'm absolutely not doing. Stacy books most of our guests, she produces the show,

She does various editing, she secures all of the sponsorship, she does everything behind the scenes. I just show up and record. And so, yeah, mean, Stacy, you deserve the world for making this happen. I'm still, I know, I know. ⁓ But you know, a lot of work goes into this show on all levels, you know, if you're sort of doing the math, like.

Stacy Grinsfelder (06:08)
and you're still quitting. Just kidding. I'm kidding. Go ahead.

it does.

Daniel Kanter (06:20)
Each interview is a recording. We record the beginning and end of the episodes separately. We record the ads separately, the mini-sodes. So over the course of a season, it's roughly 35, 40 recording sessions. And it's a lot. And so as much as I really love it and I love working with you on a regular basis, I think this is just kind of the right thing for me right now.

Stacy Grinsfelder (06:44)
Right. And you have to do what's right for you. So what I want to say is thank you for everything that you have brought to the show. It started in 2018. I've said this before and you know, it's evolved. The show changes in various ways and you have added a really nice chapter to the show and we, you know, I'll move forward. The show, the show must go on. I am all drama. So the show must go on.

But I do want to say thank you so much for what you have brought to it. And we have two episodes together, so I am not letting go of you so easily for two more episodes. You are stuck with me.

Daniel Kanter (07:25)
And I appreciate it. And you know, it's kind of been that way. Remember when we first started talking about this and I was like, you know, Stacy, I just, don't think they're gonna like me. So why don't I do like, maybe I agree to half a season and we sort of feel out the response and stuff. And you said from day one, you were like, we're doing a whole season And then you can decide and thank you for really kind of having the confidence in me that.

Stacy Grinsfelder (07:35)
You

Yeah.

Daniel Kanter (07:52)
I wouldn't ruin your show.

Stacy Grinsfelder (07:54)
You did not ruin the show by any means. And you know, you and I didn't even really know each other, truth be told. I mean, we had we'd worked together some. mean, we kind of knew each other, but I think we both took a chance on each other. I think it would be fair to say. And we've become friends and I appreciate you.

Daniel Kanter (07:55)
Well, thank you.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I appreciate you.

Stacy Grinsfelder (08:15)
So since we have a little bit of time together and since we took a long hiatus, why don't you tell us maybe, I know you could spend a whole show. I know you well by now. You could tell us, you could spend a whole show telling us what you did on your summer vacation and your winter vacation. Yeah, but maybe you could.

Daniel Kanter (08:25)
I'll try to be fast.

I never talk to anybody else. You're all I have.

Stacy Grinsfelder (08:37)
sum up what you have done since the last season ended. Okay, let me give you a little prompt. How's this? Let me give you a little prompt. You were going to go back to your front porch project and then, I don't know, there was some stuff at Silver Lake maybe? There was a boat? There were some apples? I have no idea. There was a lot going on there. Yeah, go ahead.

Daniel Kanter (08:40)
Well, yes. Okay, yes, yes, yes.

Mm-hmm.

That's true. Yeah, I didn't have like a crazy summer like housework wise, but I got back into it in August and really went hard on the porch. had, I think last year I talked about, you know, the weather has been so beautiful. We have this really late fall. Like it's so nice. This year was not like that. So I didn't get it done, but I am like so close, like literally a few more days of work in the spring and the porch will be wrapped up.

The portico is sort of its own separate thing at this point because I, yeah, I just, I didn't want to have things too torn apart. I sort of learned my lesson the year before. So we'll be going into year three on that in the spring. But then after that, I kind of hunkered down inside and you'll be very proud of me. Like I, ⁓ I,

I've talked about, think last season, maybe even the season before about like, am, I'm going into a phase of renovation with my house. That's pretty significant. I'm doing about half the house all at once, not kind of room by room. part of that is prompted by, yeah, remember my big crazy idea. Yeah. So, and I didn't, I realized I didn't really like tell Brad. So he was just very confused for two weeks as I started like just tearing apart everything.

Stacy Grinsfelder (10:07)
yeah.

I remember.

Daniel Kanter (10:19)
But basically I spent about a month just trying to really gear up and I got lots of bins and I packed everything away. So all of these rooms that are sort of in some level of progress got like packed up, totally emptied and I've been going for it. So I'm basically through demo, I've started my plumbing or I'm mostly done with my plumbing.

electric's next, insulation, and then a lot of finish work and like all of these spaces in my house that have been either totally kind of abandoned or just like really ugly and not cool are gonna be nice and I'm really happy about that. I'm really excited. It's like happening. Like now it has to be happening because like my kitchen's gone, like gone, gone. Well, well.

Stacy Grinsfelder (11:01)
Really?

That's great. Yeah.

So you don't even have a kitchen. Do you have a hot plate? Do have a coffee pot? What do you have?

Daniel Kanter (11:13)
I did one better, several better. I went to my dining room, I unloaded all the pretty stuff that's kind of not necessary right now. I took the dining room closet and made it like all this kind of dish storage. made...

the big hutch, my pantry, the microwave fits in there. And then I took two of the kitchen cabinets that I've been using for years and they're for the kitchen. I just sort of put them together early and started using them. I moved those, they're just IKEA so they mount on the wall pretty easily. Moved two of those to the kitchen, got, the dining room, got a piece of plywood for the top. Two.

uh, induction burners and my air fryer, which is also a toaster, which is also a little oven. Honestly, it's better than the kitchen. Um, I think I, I actually really love my little temporary setup. So yeah, that it's going well. I, and, and I did all of that sort of with the understanding that like, I'm not trying to lose my mind here.

Stacy Grinsfelder (12:01)
Great.

Daniel Kanter (12:13)
I'm just trying to get my house done in a way that isn't totally insane. And so far that's actually working, which feels really weird because it's like I feel like there should be way more chaos right now, but it's like, it's okay. Yeah. And it's going to go on for a little while and that's all right. And yeah, it's just, I'm honestly kind of having a blast as I'm crawling around my crawl space.

Stacy Grinsfelder (12:28)
it feels good. Good. Good.

Good, good.

Daniel Kanter (12:41)
like this is an absolute joy. So.

Stacy Grinsfelder (12:41)
Hahaha

Yeah.

We talk about this on some of the interviews. So I want to mention this beforehand that you adopted a new little dog named Pinto and Pinto is going to come up on some of the interviews. So I don't want to surprise people. People are like, who's Pinto? What's, what is a Pinto? So.

Daniel Kanter (12:52)
I did. I did.

Good reminder. Yes, it's a Ford car that used to explode. And also a bean, but honestly, I named him for the car, Yeah, so back at the very beginning of November, I got this little dog. It's been many years since I had my own little dog. He's 13 pounds. His DNA came back. He is like a...

Stacy Grinsfelder (13:04)
And also...

Daniel Kanter (13:20)
Total Jack of all flavors. Is that a phrase? Is that the correct phrase? Nope. Jack of all trades. And what's a, what, what am I trying to say? A something of all flavors. He's a horse of a different color. He's so great. I just, I love him. And he's 30 % Chihuahua, which I think is hilarious because he does not look at all like a Chihuahua and he loves the snow. So.

Stacy Grinsfelder (13:25)
It's actually a Jack of all trades, but I like a Jack of all flavors much better.

I have no idea that that works.

Good. That is really good.

Daniel Kanter (13:49)
Yes, that's Pinto. I think he might appear if you're watching this on video in a couple of the interviews, because he's a little bit... He's lapdog.

Stacy Grinsfelder (13:56)
All right, Jack of all flavors. All right, thank you for those updates. No, don't ask me anything.

Daniel Kanter (13:59)
⁓ should I ask you anything? Okay.

Well, you're welcome for those updates. I think I spoke for roughly seven minutes straight.

Stacy Grinsfelder (14:12)
No, actually, I'm going to save my updates for next episode. I feel this rush to find out everything about you and to let listeners know everything about you because they're going to have the rest of the season with me and I want them to know about you. So I.

Daniel Kanter (14:27)
I mean, you

just heard most of it. I gave Brad a perm on New Year's Eve.

And that kind of catches you up. I

Stacy Grinsfelder (14:34)
how'd that go? Yeah.

Daniel Kanter (14:36)
am, if you ever want one, Stacy, I am good. I am good. Professional level.

Stacy Grinsfelder (14:39)
⁓ no. Okay. I trust you. I absolutely

believe that you're good at it, but I'm going to pass on that. ⁓ with that information, I do think that we should take a quick break. Are you ready?

Daniel Kanter (14:47)
Alright, you're loss

Fair enough, yes.

Stacy Grinsfelder (14:57)
The first ghost story's up next.

Daniel Kanter (15:08)
We're back.

this first story, you're going to meet Julia and Chris, whose house hunting experience took an unexpected turn.

Stacy Grinsfelder (15:16)
Indeed.

Chris And Julia (15:17)
Hello, my name is Chris and I live in Boston. And my name is Julia and I also live in Boston. We live a little bit south of Boston. Yeah, we live in a loft.

And you know more about the history than I do. is. Yeah, it's from the old Westinghouse factory building that makes fans and turbine engines and they turn them into lofts. So we've been living here for about 10 years and we've been in the process of wanting to buy a single family house.

Stacy Grinsfelder (15:46)
you are here because you have a very ⁓ interesting story. I guess let me go back just a little bit because we have a mutual friend. And actually, she and I were having a conversation and direct message on Instagram. And she happened to just mention we were looking for ghost stories. And she happened to mention, I have these friends and they had this really unusual experience while they were looking for a house.

Chris And Julia (16:05)
You

Stacy Grinsfelder (16:10)
the more she just told me little bits and I said my gosh do you think that they would tell this story on podcast and she said well I don't know but I will ask them so let's set the stage first of all you said you were you've been looking for a house right and you are living outside of Boston

Chris And Julia (16:28)
we live in Boston, but kind of on the farthest end of Boston. And we were looking around our area, but then we realized that the more we looked, we really want to move north of Boston to Salem,

Daniel Kanter (16:41)
Massachusetts. I've never heard of it. What, what goes on there? Does it have any interesting history perhaps?

Chris And Julia (16:43)
Yes.

Stacy Grinsfelder (16:47)
how funny.

Chris And Julia (16:47)
It

does, it does. So Salem, Massachusetts, for anyone that doesn't know, is famous for being where the Salem witch trials took place in the late...

1600 so this is where a lot of folks were accused of being witches. There's a lot of kind of speculation about why and how that happened. Maybe there was like some mental illness happening and people had strange behaviors. Maybe there was political things that people were kind of targeting different people for different reasons.

I think one thing that we say and that they say in Salem too is they didn't kill witches, they killed women ⁓ and some men and kind of just putting a little bit of context onto that to remember that these were not spooky people actually, they were regular people. It also has a lot of cool community, a lot of restaurants, it's a super cool place and they really, they love, they embrace the history. Yeah, and during Halloween, the whole city, the month of October, you can't

Stacy Grinsfelder (17:26)
Mm-hmm

Chris And Julia (17:46)
really drive in there it's kind of every single day is like a Halloween festival with costumes and haunted houses and it's just really really fun and everyone's really nice and it's also beautiful the architecture around there is beautiful it's close to the ocean it's it's just a great community

Stacy Grinsfelder (18:06)
I

was looking up some of the history of it and I love how they just at this point they really lean in. know, one of the elementary school. Yeah, one of the elementary schools I think is called Witchcraft Heights or something like that. I thought that was pretty cute. So anyway, you happen to be looking for a house in Salem. And so why don't you just talk us through that story?

Chris And Julia (18:11)
yeah, absolutely.

Daniel Kanter (18:13)
Yeah.

Chris And Julia (18:17)
and

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so.

On MLS, we saw a house and it looked great and it was in our price range. And Julia was away for the weekend, so couldn't make it to the open house. So we set up an appointment on a Sunday with our realtor, but I happened to be around. I said, you know what? I'll just go look at it with my dog. And if it's worth the two of them coming on Sunday, we could all go. But if not, I won't waste their time. So.

So when I showed up, I was like, wow, I really like this house. It's great. And I started walking through and I had my dog. And it was beautiful. It was all hardwood floors. It had this beautiful staircase in the middle. It had all this old moldings throughout the house. And my dog started shaking a lot his name's Cashew.

Daniel Kanter (19:13)
We'll

need to see Cashew later.

Chris And Julia (19:15)
Yes,

Cashew shaking in my arms and I was like, OK, maybe he has to go to the bathroom. So I was like, all right, we'll go outside. We go into the little backyard area. And he's like, no, no, no, no, I don't want to be here. I don't want to.

to be in the backyard. He's like pulling me back and like out of there. And I was like, all right, I guess you don't have to go to the bathroom. Let's go back in the house. So I'm looking in all the rooms. And I was like, this place looks awesome. Like it's basically everything that we've been looking for. And except like in the backyard, there was a lot of trees and I was curious how far the land went back. And so I asked the realtor and he was like, if you see all of those stones way back,

kind of up to this ledge, the property goes all the way back to that line. So I was like, so we could do some raised beds back there, put some lights, like make it like a really nice area back there. And I was like, but something just seems like, I don't know. I don't know why I don't love this more, because it seems like it's everything that we were looking for. and I did notice while I was there that ⁓ there was there was a lot of people at the open house and there was this one

one woman she just kept on staring at the house and kind of walking around, but kind of looked like she was in a trance a little bit. And I was like, oh, well, let's just kind of Salem. or maybe she just

really likes it. I'm not sure, but I was like, this might be a really competitive house because there's like so many people here. So I was like, hmm, let me see if Julia likes it. I was like, this is worth Julia and the realtor coming just to get a second opinion because either she's going to say, yes, I love it. And I'll be like, okay, I don't know why. Maybe I'm just nervous because it's buying a house or maybe there's something else. And so.

Stacy Grinsfelder (20:53)
Right.

Chris And Julia (20:56)
So the next day I show up, dog's still with us our realtors with us

And same thing, Cashew is shaking like a leaf. And we're obsessed with him. Maybe we have some dog lovers here, so we're kind of very in tune with him. I kind of started to be like, OK, something's weird. He shakes sometimes, but this seems.

Out of the ordinary. it was just like really, really shaking. Yeah. what's wrong? And I said to the realtor, I was kind of like, ⁓ I was like, I don't know what it is, but like if he's going to be unhappy in a house, it doesn't really matter. Like, we don't want him. It's his space, too. And then she's like, maybe they just redid some of the floors. And there was a dog who lived here before. And I was like, well, he likes dogs, but maybe he's just smelling something strange. I don't know. Yep. So we're kind of wrapping up.

Stacy Grinsfelder (21:40)
Sure.

Chris And Julia (21:43)
Uh, still kind of on the fence, but like, okay, we'll think about it. meets a lot of boxes. Um, we get in the car to drive around town and to kind of explore the city a little bit more. And we kind of made the decision, um, we were going to make an offer on this house. we weren't going to go over the asking price. cause we both still kind of had some reservations. So we were like, okay, let's make an offer that we feel like would be, we would be happy if we got this.

it didn't happen, then it's meant not to happen. ⁓ ⁓ and Cashew's like so happy, like we're out of that house. We're in the car. You saved me. And so then I try to I turn on my car and suddenly every single light starts going off in my car, like every one, like including the check engine, It was like red lights, orange lights, the air conditioner, like every

Stacy Grinsfelder (22:11)
sure.

Hahaha.

Chris And Julia (22:31)
Every light possible and I was just like, don't I don't know what to do So I just looked up AutoZone and it was a mile away and I was like, okay I wasn't afraid driving it because it was every light so I was like maybe it's like an electrical malfunction and not something wrong with the car. I'm not sure so we drive to AutoZone and then they go and test it and they were like so it's throwing different codes, like we've never seen any of these before so we don't really

know, maybe you should bring it to the dealership. And I

Daniel Kanter (23:02)
I'm so happy right now. I love it.

Chris And Julia (23:06)
was like, okay, like this is weird. And they gave me the printout and it like didn't make sense. I didn't understand what it said. And they're like, I don't know, but your battery's fine. And I was like, okay, cool. The battery's fine. It's not electric. I don't know what this is. I guess I'll bring it to the dealership. So we're driving and after like, we live probably around.

Stacy Grinsfelder (23:20)
Right.

Chris And Julia (23:26)
almost an hour away from Salem. So like halfway home, all the lights just suddenly went off and it was just like, car was fine. Like not a problem anymore with the car. And so we're just about home and we had told the realtor that we would talk to her later because we were going to make an offer and we just had to think about it. and Julia's like, you know what, I want to do a little research.

because we do a little research before we make an offer, even though we like the house, we're like, we just we just want to make sure if there's no like news articles or something about this street or house or whatever. we're just about home and I had to get gas. And suddenly I get back in the car and Julia's just like her face is like white. She's like, and I was like, wait, what? What's going on? So I just started like Googling on my phone and the first I wrote down the first sentence that I read.

It's about Proctor Street, which is the house next door. It says in 1692, 19 people were hanged to death behind this house for the false accusation of witchcraft, one of them being the farmer and tavern keeper John Proctor. And so it was just like, yeah, straight up.

Daniel Kanter (24:24)
you

house right next door.

Chris And Julia (24:33)
It was a farm at some point and someone in the early, you have, do you have the history? can a little bit about the histories and what we found out. Cause we definitely went down like a rabbit hole

think there was 23 people total written down that were hanged. And so for a really long time, it was believed that this happened on top of Gallows Hill and Gallows Hill is still a neighborhood in Salem. I think it's on the edge of the town to the west and that is where this house is. But it was assumed that it happened at the top of the hill and it was never really memorialized because obviously this is like a pretty shameful history. Like it's like not something that people

want to be I think they wanted to forget about it for a while. And so in 1921 a local historian named Sydney Perley started to speculate that that might actually not be the case and he was thinking with how steep the hill is it doesn't really seem reasonable that carts carrying the

the accused would be able to get up the hill easily. There was kind of some eyewitness accounts that were seeming not to really align with what it had said. So he started to speculate that it actually happened at the base of the hill on Proctor's Ledge. And so...

His conclusion led the city of Salem to purchase part of Proctor's Ledge and call it Witch Memorial Land still didn't memorialize it. with a plaque. But that was kind of like what was assumed. But next to that land. there's there's three houses and the same family bought I think all of that land except for the land where.

that Salem bought and put, it was a farm, was John Proctor's farm, and then put these three houses on there.

Stacy Grinsfelder (26:11)
the same parcel beside what the town of Salem had bought.

Chris And Julia (26:14)
yeah, I'm not sure who bought what first, but this family had this land, was, I think, John Proctor's farmland and bought it and just put three houses and they all for generations lived in these three houses. And that article that we saw was

The first of the houses, I think in 2017, being sold. And the second house, the one we were looking at, had been rented for a really long time. So it was still in the family. And then I think a cousin or someone else still lives in the third house. So it's still been in this same family. Just these three houses. There's no other houses on this little land.

Stacy Grinsfelder (27:00)
Wow.

Daniel Kanter (27:01)
And at the time

of these hangings, this was all one farm, right? Is that what you're saying?

Chris And Julia (27:06)
Yes,

I don't know for sure if it was John Proctor's, it was at least named after him. So it was related to him somehow. Yeah, and it was just a farmland.

Daniel Kanter (27:11)
somebody.

Chris And Julia (27:16)
there's a memorial plaque on the other side of the hill at 7 Pope Street, which basically, we went to go look at it, and it basically is saying that this is commemorating where the bodies of the folks who had been killed were kind of dumped over the side of the hill. And so as we're reading this too, we're kind of like, well, wait a minute, the other side of the hill, like kind of just like piecing together. was like directly in the backyard. the land goes down to is where all the hangings were.

and then when it shot down is where the bodies were dumped over the.

Daniel Kanter (27:49)
where your beautiful raised

Stacy Grinsfelder (27:49)
⁓ I

Chris And Julia (27:50)
Yes, yes, yes, would

Stacy Grinsfelder (27:50)
see.

Daniel Kanter (27:50)
beds and fire pit could have been.

Chris And Julia (27:52)
have been all there. Yeah, yeah. And then there was also this. There is a video we can send you guys all of the sources that we found to. But there was a video on CBS Boston from about nine years ago where the owner of the two houses, Thomas Brophy, I'm comfortable saying his name because he agreed to being interviewed by CBS. It's a public record. So he was talking about kind of he like always like had a

Stacy Grinsfelder (28:13)
Okay.

Chris And Julia (28:18)
weird

suspicion that that might be the case because it had been written down somewhere, but never had any proof. And there was an interview with him in the backyard going over where this at all happened. We saw the backyard where the raised beds would have been. We saw the back of the house.

other things that have happened that are a little bit spooky around the house. The main one being that right around the corner from the house at the intersection of Boston and Proctor streets, it used to be the Corn Leather Company in the early 1900s. And in 1914, a chemical fire began there, which burned for 13 hours, sweeping through Salem and destroying nearly 1400 buildings, rendering 18,000 homeless or jobless.

Daniel Kanter (28:56)
Wow.

Chris And Julia (28:59)
this article that I copy pasted from said it is a devilish intersection. ⁓ So like people like obviously like at the time I think we're speculating like super cursed. ⁓ But didn't it say that those three houses were not burnt? not touched by the fire.

Stacy Grinsfelder (29:03)
Wow, wow.

Daniel Kanter (29:04)
I'll say.

AHHHH

Stacy Grinsfelder (29:15)
Really?

Chris And Julia (29:16)
from right there, yes. Which like didn't really make sense. And according to the local legend, there are definitely ghost sightings here. I think it was actually named in 2017 one of the five most haunted places in New England, Proctor's Ledge specifically.

Daniel Kanter (29:32)
wow.

Chris And Julia (29:32)
Yeah, and so people will see a lady in white hanging around, sometimes like a disembodied voice of a woman. kind of like typical ghost, like cold spots around the neighborhood too. But the funny thing is that when we did call my sister I had already seen this at this time. So was like, you are not going to believe it. Like we just went to this house on Proctor Street and she was like, she was like, is there a Duncan right around the corner?

And I was like, yeah, and she's like, that was the first stop on the ghost tour that I went to in Salem. And she knew exactly what I was going to say. So we were a little bit late to the game and could have saved ourselves some time. Because this is like a, this is a haunted house. It's for sure a haunted house. Yep.

Stacy Grinsfelder (30:01)
Hahaha.

that's so funny. That's so funny. I think it's also

worth mentioning, too, that for thousands of years Prior to colonization, this would have been Native American land as well. So definitely worth mentioning that many things happened there before colonization. Yeah. Wow. So wild. So.

Chris And Julia (30:17)
Absolutely. Yes,

before this even. Yep. Yeah.

Daniel Kanter (30:26)
is.

Stacy Grinsfelder (30:28)
⁓ I'm assuming you changed your mind about putting in an offer.

Chris And Julia (30:33)
yes, we immediately called our realtor and we told her and then she had to tell the other realtor why we were not and then apparently he was like, ⁓ I had no idea and we don't

Stacy Grinsfelder (30:34)
You

Do

Daniel Kanter (30:45)
Mm-hmm.

Stacy Grinsfelder (30:48)
you think you really had no idea?

Chris And Julia (30:49)
No, I think he probably had an idea. considering that the brothers knew the owners of the houses and stuff and but our realtor was funny. she knows that I think about true crime a lot and always ask these questions. And she was like, well, know, statistically, any other neighborhood in Salem is going to be a lot, a lot safer, lot less murders in every other neighborhood. You're like, yeah, you're so

Stacy Grinsfelder (31:09)
Wow, yeah.

Daniel Kanter (31:11)
So

you're like, show me the last murdery one next time.

Chris And Julia (31:14)
Yes, yes,

Stacy Grinsfelder (31:14)
Yeah.

Wow.

Chris And Julia (31:15)
exactly.

Daniel Kanter (31:16)
So I guess this answers

the question, I'm curious about you personally. Like, what if Cashew loved it? What if he really loved it?

Chris And Julia (31:24)
That's a good

question. That's a good question. I mean, honestly, if I found this history, I think that's too much. It's a shared decision making process so we get our own vote too.

Daniel Kanter (31:29)
You

Okay.

Okay, two against one.

Stacy Grinsfelder (31:38)
Yeah, well, so if

if Cashew had loved it, do you think you still would have looked up the history and found this out?

Chris And Julia (31:46)
Yeah, we might have, but I think that it was definitely feeling a lot more urgent. Like it was kind of feeling like a gut feeling of like, we can't move forward with this until we find out. So I do, I think it was definitely inspired. Yeah, and like we were kind of like gaslighting ourselves in the moment and being like, it's just a dog, like it's fine. Like I don't want to make a decision based on our dog, but now.

He is obviously the the litmus test for for hauntings moving forward. Bring him to everything. Yep.

Stacy Grinsfelder (32:13)
Yeah.

Daniel Kanter (32:15)
Yeah. Yeah, I would.

Stacy Grinsfelder (32:17)
That's funny.

Daniel Kanter (32:18)
I would keep that dog on you at all times.

Stacy Grinsfelder (32:19)
Yeah.

Chris And Julia (32:21)
Yes, yes, yep.

Stacy Grinsfelder (32:22)
And Daniel, you've mentioned this

before in a previous episode, Daniel, you were talking about for some people, a haunted house or potentially haunted house is actually something that they want.

Daniel Kanter (32:32)
Right, that's kind of what I was getting at. when I asked about Cashew, part of the question was would that have been appealing to you otherwise?

Chris And Julia (32:39)
would we have been swayed?

Daniel Kanter (32:43)
No. I think that's okay.

Chris And Julia (32:44)
I don't think we're that kind of people. I love all the history and like, spirits, but also there's like a difference between like haunting and 19 people being hanged in a backyard. it's...

Stacy Grinsfelder (32:55)
Right.

Chris And Julia (32:58)
It's this is just this is horrible what happened and I feel like there's if it's like, sometimes there's a ghost I mean in all old houses, I anti houses like that That's fine. If if someone passed away in the house or if it was a good ghost not that these ghosts were not good But I just think just all of the history and I wouldn't want to have Like we really want a backyard for the dog and we want an area to the garden. I would not want to be digging up

Stacy Grinsfelder (33:00)
Yeah.

Chris And Julia (33:25)
area which is site. So there was like a lot of other things to that so I'm not opposed to houses that might be a little spooky but this was too much. I do wonder if that woman that you saw

Stacy Grinsfelder (33:37)
Yeah.

Daniel Kanter (33:37)
Let's tear clear of violent crime.

Chris And Julia (33:39)
I wonder if she was in that camp of like feeling a little more interested. I think she was probably a psychic, a Yeah, it seemed like that. I noticed her right away that it was just really odd and she was kind of looking at Cashew like, hmmm...

Daniel Kanter (33:39)
Yeah.

Chris And Julia (33:54)
With the knowing smile. the dog knows. And then she kept on circling around the outside of the house in a way that wasn't like other people looking at the roof or the windows or something. And so I was like, huh, like it was just very odd. And I was like, maybe she really wants this house, And she was by herself, too. She wasn't with a realtor. And she was there for a very long time.

Because I was there for a long time. Yeah. Everyone's like, who are you talking about? Yeah. I don't know. Exactly. Yeah.

Daniel Kanter (34:19)
You never saw her... You never saw her like walk through a wall or anything.

Stacy Grinsfelder (34:26)
Maybe she was doing a clearing. I don't know. We've learned a lot about clearings over the years

that we have done these ghost stories.

Daniel Kanter (34:33)
Sounds like she didn't

do a great job.

Chris And Julia (34:35)
She

could have. She could be the right fit. Right. And she was every single room that I was in. So who knows, honestly, now that I'm thinking about it. Yes. And outside. No one ever seen her in the ghost at the same time.

Stacy Grinsfelder (34:37)
Yeah, I don't know.

Daniel Kanter (34:43)
All at the same time.

Stacy Grinsfelder (34:45)
It was probably the realtor

who claimed not to know anything about it. He probably called her and he was like, you gotta come over here and do a clearing. Like, I gotta be able to tell these people that it's all good. Everything's fine here.

Chris And Julia (34:55)
Exactly. Exactly. We

know about it. It's all been dealt I know. I'm sure that some people would, especially in Salem, like I feel like they should just play it up moving forward. I don't know that it's been sold.

Daniel Kanter (35:07)
Right.

Stacy Grinsfelder (35:09)
Right.

Daniel Kanter (35:09)
Do you know if the house found a buyer?

Oh, sorry. There you go.

Chris And Julia (35:12)
Well, I on

MLS, I looked and it just said off market. So I don't know if it was a private thing or if it because normally it says contingent or whatever, and it just says off market. So, yeah. So who knows if it was a private sale or if they just took it off the market because no one put in an offer and they're going to put it in, put it on in the spring. don't know. It's a beautiful house. I mean, if.

Stacy Grinsfelder (35:23)
sold or whatever.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chris And Julia (35:41)
Yeah, nothing bad about the house. Yes, yes. Yeah, yes. Yeah, maybe that's it. Yeah.

Stacy Grinsfelder (35:42)
The right buyer is out there.

Daniel Kanter (35:43)
Why do I feel like somebody listening to this is going to go buy that? Like, why do I have that? I just, it might be me, but why?

Stacy Grinsfelder (35:47)
Yeah, yeah.

maybe we'll make a connection. So we have two

things to do before we wrap up today. The first thing is will you find little Cashew for us so we can see how cute he is?

Chris And Julia (35:58)
Oh my gosh, of course.

need to show the little ghost hunter. He, mean, Yorkies, I think were originally bred to chase rats out of sewers. So he could totally do it. ghost baby here. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, very sensitive little guy.

Stacy Grinsfelder (36:09)
⁓ wow, so well there he is little Cashew chasing ghosts out of Salem.

Daniel Kanter (36:12)
⁓ my gosh. ⁓ my. Well, all right. If you're not,

if you're not on watching on video, I just want to make clear, Cashew is seven pounds. He is tan. He has wiry fur, permanent little smile, very pointy ears. He is perfect.

Chris And Julia (36:27)
Yeah. Let's see if we can get him right up to the to the little

Stacy Grinsfelder (36:31)
he looks like he could

The second thing we need to do before we wrap up is Chris, I'd love for you to mention your Instagram handle and how people can find you if they are interested, especially in a restoration carpenter or finding you in another capacity. Go for it.

Daniel Kanter (36:32)
Divine.

Chris And Julia (36:41)
Yes. Yes.

Yes. So I am a graduate of the North Bennet Street School for Preservation Carpentry. my business is North Star Preservation. And I do a lot of work around Boston. I've done a lot of historic doors, some windows, in some like one.

place I was working on was a Harvard Musical Association redoing all their casement windows. So that's really cool because that's a really old musical organization. And I have a shop in Woburn.

and in my shop there are three other people who are also preservation carpenters ⁓ from the North Bennet Street School. So if there's something that I can't do or I'm busy, there's like other people. we sometimes work together on projects and it's just so fun. We love what we do and we would so we would be really happy. What is your handle? It's at

Stacy Grinsfelder (37:38)
Great.

Chris And Julia (37:40)
North Star preservation on Instagram. Yes. Thank you. I do I'm just making some tweaks to it. I kind of put off having a website for a while So it will be up soon. Yes. Okay.

Stacy Grinsfelder (37:42)
Wonderful. I will put that in the show notes. Do you have a website as well?

Daniel Kanter (37:43)
Very cool.

Stacy Grinsfelder (37:51)
Yeah, well, let's put it in there. Yeah, let's put it in. Let's put it in the show notes, because maybe by the time this episode

comes out, is it Northstarpreservation.com? OK, it was just a guess, but I got it right. First try. All right. Well, yeah, Chris and Julia, thank you so much for telling this really spine tingling story. I love it.

Chris And Julia (37:57)
I mean, have, own the domain preservation. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Yes.

Daniel Kanter (38:02)
Very good.

Where did you come up with it?

Chris And Julia (38:13)
Yeah, thank you for having us. It was This was

Daniel Kanter (38:16)
Thank you

Thanks guys.

Stacy Grinsfelder (38:18)
That was a good story, right? I got goosebumps. Yeah, Cashew knew. When she told us how many hangings there were there, I got goosebumps.

Daniel Kanter (38:19)
Woo, cashew knew cashew.

Mm-hmm. When I made the connection in my head between all those stones lined up and the ledge where the.

Stacy Grinsfelder (38:34)
I know. So creepy. So creepy. Yeah. I don't know. Would you have you ask them if they would buy that house? Would you have bought that house? I mean, you like this stuff more than I do.

Daniel Kanter (38:34)
Chills. Full body.

I mean, he makes a very good point that like, a multiple murder, violent crime kind of thing, it feels different than like your average, you know, someone died of consumption. So I'd have to think about that. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. I can say there is a house down the street from my own where a violent crime occurred that I did want to buy for years, but it quietly sold. So I guess I'm not that scared.

Stacy Grinsfelder (38:52)
Right.

Yeah.

Yeah, we've.

Yeah,

Daniel Kanter (39:10)
Something wrong with me, Stacy?

Stacy Grinsfelder (39:10)
yeah. No, there is nothing wrong with you, but you're right. And he was right, too. I mean, there's something about moving in and sort of you feel responsible, not responsible for what happened there, but a responsibility to take care of the property and the energy and whatever happens from that point on, because you do become part of the story of a house like that. So I don't know.

Daniel Kanter (39:33)
Yeah, definitely.

Stacy Grinsfelder (39:35)
I don't think I could do it. I think I'd have to say no.

Stacy Grinsfelder (39:43)
Well that was the first spooky season episode and that was a lot of fun.

Daniel Kanter (39:48)
I loved every second.

Stacy Grinsfelder (39:49)
and we've got another one coming up next week.

Daniel Kanter (39:52)
Can't wait. Love them. Love them so much.

Stacy Grinsfelder (39:55)
Thank you for listening to True Tales from Old Houses and thank you again to our sponsors, Sutherland Welles Heritage Supply Co., Repaint Studios, and Brouns & Co. Linseed Oil Paint.

Daniel Kanter (40:06)
To continue the conversation, please go and follow True Tales from Old Houses on Facebook or Instagram. And you're more than welcome to follow us individually @ Daniel Kanter and @ Blake Hill House.

Stacy Grinsfelder (40:18)
Now I love your emails and voicemails, so please send both and you can do that over on the True Tales from Old House's website. And if you enjoyed today's episode, hit follow or subscribe wherever you are listening right now.

Daniel Kanter (40:31)
Extra points if you leave us a review. It's free and it helps more old house lovers find this show.

Stacy Grinsfelder (40:37)
Well, I think we're off to a great start, Daniel. How about you?

Daniel Kanter (40:40)
A

a perfect start, I would say.

Stacy Grinsfelder (40:42)
Until next time.

Daniel Kanter (40:44)
See you next week.